A young feller from another place sent me this question:
My name is ***** ********* and I attend the ******* Church. I pray by the grace of God that you might be able to help me with some queries.I am having an issue with some doctrine at my church in regarding to 'waiting on the Lord.'
It seems crass, but I have sought you out because my pastor has asked me to widen my circle of influence, away from **** ********* (Our AFES staff worker). Now don't stress, I highly regard **** and it's with his advice that I send this email to you, and for his relationships with our church.
We were in a bible study at church on prayer. We were given testimonies from people who had had experience in prayer - whilst waiting on the Lord. Now after this time were split into groups and asked to pray then wait, and see what the Lord would say to us. We were requested to share with the groups what voices/thoughts may have come into our head and told that it's okay to be wrong. From here I got really frustrated and left, but others hit the town seeking these thoughts they had, i.e. a chair at maccas.
Now from what I understand there are no examples of this in the bible, and if there are examples of being still or waiting on the lord, in context these do not mean to sit and wait for voices or extra biblical revelation. I also know that there are serious implications in the bible for false prophets.
There is so much more I can say but to keep it brief I and my mate mike are in dialogue with the pastor in charge. He feels sorry that we can't see his side and says we can't discount people's positive experiences.
So in essence I was wondering what your thoughts are and how I should continue to approach this situation. I am really scared for the doctrine and theology of our church and the Baptist church in Victoria, as we seem to be abandoning what is our core and that is the bible.
Please pray for me and my church family that we would place what the bible says at the front of all issues. I would love to hear your thoughts on this issue.
Yours in Christ
****** *********
This was my response:
****,
I'll spend a minute or two responding to your question. I know **** ******* from ******, from a few years ago. As far as I am concerned he is a good guy. He studied at ***** so that would indicate to me that he is well trained also.
But about the issue. Waiting on the Lord
This question reminds me of back when I was at uni, leading a small group. One of the fellers in my group told me about how when he lay down in bed at night all sorts of ideas came into his head. He wanted to know whether this might be the spirit talking to him.
I didn't say the first thing that came to my mind, "It's probably just the blood rushing to your head." However, I think that possibility touches on the key issue here.
I think the issue in what you describe is when we are so thirsty for direction from God that we spiritualise normal creation processes. I often have lots of ideas when I go to bed. That's when I construct all the novels I'm never going to write. I'm prepared to let God speak to me through those ideas, but I recognise that some of them are just plain weird- the meanderings of a tired brain idling out of gear.
So I told my friend that God may speak to you through that, but not to expect that he always will, instead to test everything against the Word of God.
I would suggest the same answer to you regarding waiting on the Lord, as you describe it.
Quiet is a good spiritual discipline. But we have to recognise that all sorts of natural (and fallen) processes go on in the human head when we attempt to isolate outside stimuli. It can be good, it can be time wasted and it can also be unhealthy. I don't think it is always, or necessarily, going to connect you with the Holy Spirit. There is no method or ritual or practice that will always produce an 'experience' of the Holy Spirit. From my understanding of the sovereignty and independence of God any process that always delivers a particular experience is more likely to be natural (part of how we are created) than spiritual. That is probably my bias showing through there.
From a brief survey of Scriptures, there is a bit of talk about waiting for the Lord, but I didn't find anything about waiting on the Lord. (just a quick computer search for the phrase in the NIV)
Waiting for the Lord in the Old Testament seems to be more about waiting for the Lord to act. Going about your day by day, week by week business in faith, trusting that God will save his people. So I suspect that the Scriptural warrant for this kind of practice is minimal. It's certainly not obvious to me.
One interesting verse that pops up is Psalm 130:5:
"I wait for the LORD, my soul waits, and in his word I put my hope."
Waiting for the Lord is the obedience that comes from trusting in God's word.
So I would suggest that there is nothing wrong with waiting on the Lord as a spiritual discipline if it is submitted to the Scriptures. I would not encourage anyone to participate in the activity you have described because the framework and context it is put in seems inadequate. It seems to me too much is made of the random thoughts that come into your head, and not enough godly Biblical discernment is used to filter and test those thoughts.
Also, in opposition to your pastor, I say that the Scriptures should always trump experience. Experience should never be used as a counter to the teaching of the Sciptures but always submitted and sifted, even understood, through the teaching of the Scriptures.
And, if it's OK to be wrong, it's probably not from God. If it's also not a source of revelation/inspiration/motivation that can be relied upon, it's not God's revelation. It's not from God (although again God might use it, much as he might use parents to teach one Christian, but another Christian has to mature in godliness without parental support).
If you come to the conclusion that your pastor is not teaching/leading well you have a number of options. You can stick it out, you never know how long he will stay. You can try to get him to change, which is unlikely, but possible. You can try to kick him out, this is hard for a young feller to do, and very painful. You can leave and go to another church, which is easiest, but not necessarily best. Which you do is really between you and God, but don't do anything without some prayer and study of the Scripture and talk to other wiser Christians who know the situation better than I do.
Whatever you do, let me encourage you to stand firm in the faith, do not let pride or arrogance lead your steps. Speak the truth with love (never in anger or frustration - ask yourslef is love for this person or others motivating me now). Ensure that you are trusting and walking with the Lord in repentance and faith, not only getting doctrine right. And if you love the Baptist church, as I do, stay in the Baptist system and encourage and build up others to love the Scriptures.
You may be worried about the state of the Church, but it is not our church and it is not our job to make it pure and spotless, we are called to be faithful to our Lord and he will look after the rest. He may use you to reform, but in obedience to him. (Also the church has been in much worse states than this before now - God is faithful)
Well, I hope this has been helpful, if in a rushed and disjointed way.
God Bless,
Michael Hutton
Ariah Park Baptist Church
My name is ***** ********* and I attend the ******* Church. I pray by the grace of God that you might be able to help me with some queries.I am having an issue with some doctrine at my church in regarding to 'waiting on the Lord.'
It seems crass, but I have sought you out because my pastor has asked me to widen my circle of influence, away from **** ********* (Our AFES staff worker). Now don't stress, I highly regard **** and it's with his advice that I send this email to you, and for his relationships with our church.
We were in a bible study at church on prayer. We were given testimonies from people who had had experience in prayer - whilst waiting on the Lord. Now after this time were split into groups and asked to pray then wait, and see what the Lord would say to us. We were requested to share with the groups what voices/thoughts may have come into our head and told that it's okay to be wrong. From here I got really frustrated and left, but others hit the town seeking these thoughts they had, i.e. a chair at maccas.
Now from what I understand there are no examples of this in the bible, and if there are examples of being still or waiting on the lord, in context these do not mean to sit and wait for voices or extra biblical revelation. I also know that there are serious implications in the bible for false prophets.
There is so much more I can say but to keep it brief I and my mate mike are in dialogue with the pastor in charge. He feels sorry that we can't see his side and says we can't discount people's positive experiences.
So in essence I was wondering what your thoughts are and how I should continue to approach this situation. I am really scared for the doctrine and theology of our church and the Baptist church in Victoria, as we seem to be abandoning what is our core and that is the bible.
Please pray for me and my church family that we would place what the bible says at the front of all issues. I would love to hear your thoughts on this issue.
Yours in Christ
****** *********
This was my response:
****,
I'll spend a minute or two responding to your question. I know **** ******* from ******, from a few years ago. As far as I am concerned he is a good guy. He studied at ***** so that would indicate to me that he is well trained also.
But about the issue. Waiting on the Lord
This question reminds me of back when I was at uni, leading a small group. One of the fellers in my group told me about how when he lay down in bed at night all sorts of ideas came into his head. He wanted to know whether this might be the spirit talking to him.
I didn't say the first thing that came to my mind, "It's probably just the blood rushing to your head." However, I think that possibility touches on the key issue here.
I think the issue in what you describe is when we are so thirsty for direction from God that we spiritualise normal creation processes. I often have lots of ideas when I go to bed. That's when I construct all the novels I'm never going to write. I'm prepared to let God speak to me through those ideas, but I recognise that some of them are just plain weird- the meanderings of a tired brain idling out of gear.
So I told my friend that God may speak to you through that, but not to expect that he always will, instead to test everything against the Word of God.
I would suggest the same answer to you regarding waiting on the Lord, as you describe it.
Quiet is a good spiritual discipline. But we have to recognise that all sorts of natural (and fallen) processes go on in the human head when we attempt to isolate outside stimuli. It can be good, it can be time wasted and it can also be unhealthy. I don't think it is always, or necessarily, going to connect you with the Holy Spirit. There is no method or ritual or practice that will always produce an 'experience' of the Holy Spirit. From my understanding of the sovereignty and independence of God any process that always delivers a particular experience is more likely to be natural (part of how we are created) than spiritual. That is probably my bias showing through there.
From a brief survey of Scriptures, there is a bit of talk about waiting for the Lord, but I didn't find anything about waiting on the Lord. (just a quick computer search for the phrase in the NIV)
Waiting for the Lord in the Old Testament seems to be more about waiting for the Lord to act. Going about your day by day, week by week business in faith, trusting that God will save his people. So I suspect that the Scriptural warrant for this kind of practice is minimal. It's certainly not obvious to me.
One interesting verse that pops up is Psalm 130:5:
"I wait for the LORD, my soul waits, and in his word I put my hope."
Waiting for the Lord is the obedience that comes from trusting in God's word.
So I would suggest that there is nothing wrong with waiting on the Lord as a spiritual discipline if it is submitted to the Scriptures. I would not encourage anyone to participate in the activity you have described because the framework and context it is put in seems inadequate. It seems to me too much is made of the random thoughts that come into your head, and not enough godly Biblical discernment is used to filter and test those thoughts.
Also, in opposition to your pastor, I say that the Scriptures should always trump experience. Experience should never be used as a counter to the teaching of the Sciptures but always submitted and sifted, even understood, through the teaching of the Scriptures.
And, if it's OK to be wrong, it's probably not from God. If it's also not a source of revelation/inspiration/motivation that can be relied upon, it's not God's revelation. It's not from God (although again God might use it, much as he might use parents to teach one Christian, but another Christian has to mature in godliness without parental support).
If you come to the conclusion that your pastor is not teaching/leading well you have a number of options. You can stick it out, you never know how long he will stay. You can try to get him to change, which is unlikely, but possible. You can try to kick him out, this is hard for a young feller to do, and very painful. You can leave and go to another church, which is easiest, but not necessarily best. Which you do is really between you and God, but don't do anything without some prayer and study of the Scripture and talk to other wiser Christians who know the situation better than I do.
Whatever you do, let me encourage you to stand firm in the faith, do not let pride or arrogance lead your steps. Speak the truth with love (never in anger or frustration - ask yourslef is love for this person or others motivating me now). Ensure that you are trusting and walking with the Lord in repentance and faith, not only getting doctrine right. And if you love the Baptist church, as I do, stay in the Baptist system and encourage and build up others to love the Scriptures.
You may be worried about the state of the Church, but it is not our church and it is not our job to make it pure and spotless, we are called to be faithful to our Lord and he will look after the rest. He may use you to reform, but in obedience to him. (Also the church has been in much worse states than this before now - God is faithful)
Well, I hope this has been helpful, if in a rushed and disjointed way.
God Bless,
Michael Hutton
Ariah Park Baptist Church
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